Egosoft, Plese stick to what you are good at!

[Juggernaut93]

- Map is still the thingy with the highways and station blueprints where you get too "focused" information. X3 maps were 100000 times better. One quick look and you know whats happening in the entire system how many reds what type and where exactly - where your other assets are etc etc even see their direction and glean speed. In comparison the Rebirth map is a pile of ... you guessed it. You have to zoom in to see (useful gameplay) detail and by the time you zoom out again you have no idea where stuff was.

Yeah, because in X3 you didn't have to open each sector to watch what was happening in there, right? At least here you can move seamlessy between sector and you have a MUCH higher degree of control of the map.

- Walk from ship to ship and even go through the whole thing when docking / undocking. oooopss

1) They already said the walking part was reduced.
2) To change ships you'll be able to use the teleporter.
3) In the late game docking on station will only be needed for missions.


But seriously, with all the new features added why are people fixating on this walking thing? Damn.

[Vandragorax]

The thing is that there is still so much potential to explore outside of stations which can be integrated and applied better than these horrific models and FPS sequences that aren't Egosoft's specialty.

The main focus in terms of both eye candy and development should be the space aspects and ships. I will remind you that X games don't have modular ship designs after 6 games... This means we can't destroy engines, sensors and other aspects of ships and opening these up could bring up a whole new array of gameplay mechanics.

That is just one example, among other things I can think of is resolving the bad guy issues... As of X3AP we have too many bad guys and this is once more an example of Egosoft stretching itself too thin and not giving us properly fleshed out bad guys to fight and fear of.

Right now we have the Xenon, Khaakh, Pirates, Terrans and other "evil" corporations who are all supposed to be bad and fearsome yet neither of them is deep enough for players to care about.

Lastly Egosoft really needs to streamline the whole transition between single ship gameplay and fleet gameplay, right now the game itself isn't really built to make any clear distinction between the two making the transition very uncomfortable and cumbersome to manage and they had 6 games to get that in order, while they had complemented improvements in these areas it is still not nearly at the level is should be.

I would like to agree and disagree with you here as I believe you are off on a couple of your observations

1) Main focus = space aspects and ships/fleet.
- I agree with this and do think that the station walking sequences detracted a lot from X:R's development time, to the detriment of the rest of the game.

2) Modular ship designs
- I'm not sure why you think we don't currently have modular ship designs? In X:R it is entirely possible to destroy any capital ship's: shields, engines, radar, weapons all independently. Sure more could be done with this system, and looks like it already has been done since in the reveal video we were shown modules on ships that actually look vastly different based on what they are, weapons you can tell from the outside what types they are and see them in 3d models not just everything looking like the same boring turret.

3) The bad guys
- I agree with you here that the 'bad guys' need more player interactions. X:R already went a little way with this, I often saw Xenon destroyers trying to siege populated systems, although they usually got hammered by station defences pretty quickly, they did ramp up in presence through the late game.

4) Streamline transition between single ship and fleet gameplay
- I would say that this is EXACTLY what they are doing with the new map abd teleportation system that was shown off in the presentation. I'm excited most about this feature to see what they do with it, as it is already looking like a proper management UI (and that is precisely what the map should be in all honestly).

[Crellion]

I don't know why you think the map in X3 was so good because it really wasn't, .

Its not very easy to answer this but I will try if nothing else for Egosoft's benefit:

The X3 series map was VERY crisp and crystal clear. With a quick glance you know how many and which type - size vessels where in which part of the map (and how far from you) etc.

The R map is a vague blurred fuzzy outlines thing where anything could be anything or something else.

I am really curious btw - if Egosoft thinks Rebirth was such a good game why arent they concerned about the number of people with 3442464234236455 hours on TC/AP on their Steam account and like 200 hours of Rebirth and all this AFTER Rebirth came out.

The only game I pre-ordered (6 months at least) in my life was Rebirth. I think it wasnt worth a dime tbh but I feel good about giving the $$$ to Egosoft anyway because I got R/TC/AP on hugely discounted prices and got so much back from those games (ok Xtended and XTC teams part of the reason for this to be fair) that it was worth the Rebirth money-down-the-drain no probs.

Then on the other hand I am thinking Egosoft may actually be thinking how little the got moneywise from X3 series and how much from Rebirth and this may influence their future decisions = and then I see the X4 vid and its not X4 but X-Rebirth II and well ... I dont cry often but yeah it welled up there...

[Vandragorax]

I think the main reason we see people racking up thousands of hours on X3 expansions but less on Rebirth is predominantly that Rebirth doesn't have as solid of an end-game. It's a lot more difficult to build stations, to set up all the managers and traders, and the economy itself is 'broken' in a few ways, the main one being some wares are completely unobtainable so in certain cases factory building can stall all together.

There have been some improvements to this but overall it is more difficult to continue playing at end-game than in X3:TC which worked better in that regard.

I feel that the focus for X4 going into the new map mode, a better economy, and a new way of building/managing stations (as well as being able to completely destroy existing stations) will all help to enhance that "empire management" style end-game which most people end up in. This is where Rebirth falls short, and if done right then X4 will go back towards the X3 situation where people are able to play for a very long time in "empire management" mode building up large empires

[Crellion]

Just to add on the map discussion above the obvious that I think I forgot to:

X3 style map is a tool that you bring up while flying which you can use while ur ship is doing whats supposed to be doing and XR map when you brought it up everything stopped so - for example- no map use during travel or combat.

That's more important to the character of the entire game than I can put into words.

[sd_jasper]

Just to add on the map discussion above the obvious that I think I forgot to:

X3 style map is a tool that you bring up while flying which you can use while ur ship is doing whats supposed to be doing and XR map when you brought it up everything stopped so - for example- no map use during travel or combat.

That's more important to the character of the entire game than I can put into words.

In XR you can change if your menus (including the map) stop your ship or not. I have not problem setting autopilot to fly across the galaxy and then pulling up the map to check on my other ships, or whatever.

[Vandragorax]

Just to add on the map discussion above the obvious that I think I forgot to:

X3 style map is a tool that you bring up while flying which you can use while ur ship is doing whats supposed to be doing and XR map when you brought it up everything stopped so - for example- no map use during travel or combat.

That's more important to the character of the entire game than I can put into words.

As written above, this was improved by becoming a toggle-able option very early on. Maybe before slating Rebirth you should try not to compare features from day 1 release but rather how the game is now after its many improvements based on player feedback

[lyubarskiy]

Couldn't agree more.
Adding features for the sake of having them is always a bad idea.

Just like the idiotic mini games in Rebirth, highway tailgating and scraping paint with drones and scanning every point of interest on the station, never adds any benefit to the game.

X series was always great because it didn't feel the need to add minigames or features for the sake of having them.

Interiors and cockpits and people walking around is not useful if it doesn't add value to the game and from what I saw, in the reveal, I would rather not have to look at the janky walking blob looking things.

EGO, please focus on AI, Economy, large scale wars, conflicts, easy UI to manage all that and game optimization.

Please don't try to be starcitizen. PLEASE!!!!

[-Dna-]

EGO, please focus on AI, Economy, large scale wars, conflicts, easy UI to manage all that and game optimization.

So... focus on every feature of your game?

[Beermachine]

Agree with the vast majority of the OP's post.

Given the choice between an awesome space sim with no walking around / planetary landings and a good space game with an adequate land based simulation I'd choose the first option every time.

Jack of all trades games are generally doomed to failure. A specialist game that focuses only on a specific genre (or subgenre) will undoubtedly do it far better.

Why play one game that does two things adequately when you can play two games that does each one well?

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Beermachine

Why play one game that does two things adequately when you can play two games that does each one well?

Well lets follow that argument to its conclusion then.

We should all be playing Elite Dangerous for the better flight model and its combat.

I've never played an economic simulator but I bet X games are not in anybodies top ten.

As for empire building well Civilization does that a whole lot better.

So it seems we shouldn't be playing any X games at all!

[Beermachine]

@Beermachine

Why play one game that does two things adequately when you can play two games that does each one well?

Well lets follow that argument to its conclusion then.

We should all be playing Elite Dangerous for the better flight model and its combat.

I've never played an economic simulator but I bet X games are not in anybodies top ten.

As for empire building well Civilization does that a whole lot better.

So it seems we shouldn't be playing any X games at all!

I'd consider X3TC/AP to be the best space simulator that involves progressing from nothing to having an intergalactic empire, while having the widest variety of activities that can be performed along the way.

Throw in having one of the best modding communities and largest selection of mods for a wide variety of different tastes and game styles than any space game (and most other genres also) ever.

Elite doesn't do fleet management, and doesn't (or didn't, haven't played for a while) do large scale fleet battles. Not to mention the players actions have NO impact on the universe at all. It's flight model is subjective, some prefer a more realistic non atmospheric flight model in their space sims.

Whether Civ does empire building better is very subjective, they're two completely different game experiences with vastly different mechanics involved. Just like comparing Stellaris to X3 is pretty pointless, as both don't involve any 1st person elements and are purely strategy. Now if X3's 1st person element was dreadful and just a sideshow to the strategy element then you might have a point, but I think it's really well done and one of the main attractions.

Shall I go on, I've got lots more.....

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Yes as you say, X3 does a lot of stuff but none of it is the best in class.

I was addressing your point about playing two games that did stuff better than X.

What happens in X is that the combination of all of the factors even though some stuff is mediocre makes it a special game.

However this magic only happens in some cases when you add mods.

I consider X:R to be a better game than X:3 in a number of ways, my opinion.
I have 1000's of hours in X3 Reunion and TC but only about 500 in AP.
I have got fed up with playing the same game over and over again.
I need something that brings change to the formula.
I want to play a space sim that improves on what went before.
I want it to be different so that I can enjoy playing it again.

See its all me me me.

[Beermachine]

@ZaphodBeeblebrox

Fair enough, and can understand your perspective. Luckily I'm not burnt out on the X3 style, or rather have now recovered enough that I'd enjoy another mammoth run again (with multithreading, improved mechanics, AI etc).

My point was a generalisation. Related specifically in X4 to what is essentially an FPS component, in that there's no way it will be comparable to even a mediocre FPS experience given that's not what X4 focus is on.

While it adds immersion, IMO it seems like a lot of wasted effort in what is essentially a space game, not an FPS, when that effort could be used to make the space portion much more immersive and better instead.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Egosoft did do a lot of good things in Rebirth.

A lot of people complained about the AI especially around combat issues.

Toward the end they were starting to do some really good stuff.

There's a video out there showing 100's of small fighters attacking a Xenon I.

In this the fighters are firstly attacking surface elements, with all of the weapons disabled the rest soon followed. I don't know if you have seen this video but you really need to hunt it down and watch it.

Nothing like this could have been done in X3. I know. I spent a whole lot of
time constructing a carrier based fleet to attack a Xenon sector. It was a real pain to assemble and when I finally got the fleet to the sector and started the fight... Well it almost made me want to cry.

[Crellion]

Just to add on the map discussion above the obvious that I think I forgot to:

X3 style map is a tool that you bring up while flying which you can use while ur ship is doing whats supposed to be doing and XR map when you brought it up everything stopped so - for example- no map use during travel or combat.

That's more important to the character of the entire game than I can put into words.

As written above, this was improved by becoming a toggle-able option very early on. Maybe before slating Rebirth you should try not to compare features from day 1 release but rather how the game is now after its many improvements based on player feedback

To be fair I only ever clocked 60 hours or so on Rebirth (despite buying it months before release - only game I ever did that for-).

However those 60 hours were on three occasions at least 3 years apart. Its great that the option exists but they must either have put it in a good 4-5 years after launch or not made it obvious...

Anyway its good that they did make all those improvements. Hopefully they are aware that all the "fixes" in gameplay in R must be there from the start in X4. R would definately have done a LOT better with us X3 fans if not (a) released 1/3 of the way ready and (b) marketed as "the next X series game" which it clearly wasnt - at least not for the fist 3 years [Egosoft seems to be acknowledging that it wasn't too].

I wish they also change the way the map represents items back to the X3 format: i.e. a vessel doesn't need to be a scaled down version of the actual thing - or a high way a miniature highway. These things come out so big that they clatter the map and so small that its impossible to glean what they are at a glance. Representations must be by "ideogram" i.e M5 can be > M4 can be >> M3 >>- etc.

You get the picture use symbols that are small enough to make the map clean and clear even where dozens are present but also simple enough that even at this small size they clearly convey the meaning without confusion. Its a computer generated 2D (or 3D when you toggle to change planes) representation of the data received via scanners and radars not an actual radar screen like in Rebirth.

I dont know if I am doing a good enough job at explaining...

Also if this has also been changed in Rebirth and you now have the option to switch to such a map mod let me know please

[Note to Egosoft it is REALLY sound marketing strategy to release your stuff with best options as default. Many people will only try default settings and form an opinion as such.]

[BigBANGtheory]

Just to add on the map discussion above the obvious that I think I forgot to:

X3 style map is a tool that you bring up while flying which you can use while ur ship is doing whats supposed to be doing and XR map when you brought it up everything stopped so - for example- no map use during travel or combat.

That's more important to the character of the entire game than I can put into words.

Ok I see what you are saying now, essentially you feel there is something in between the cockpit radar on the HUD and an all powerful Map, you like having a local sector map which you can view whilst flying and doesn't interrupt flying. It doesn't therefore need to be interactive it just needs to display what is going on locally around your ship. I thought you were trying to suggest that the X3 sector map was superior but its more that the information is missing... not unlike v1.0 of XR where there was no cockpit radar but it got added in v2.x

I don't think you can just bring back an X3 style sector map as is because the sectors are much bigger now and have highways as well as gates so there is inherently more space and objects that appear in what was a sector but is now a series of zones. That structure isn't going away by the looks of it so if you have an issue with that I'd learn to live with it.

What might be possible though is a fixed 2D viewport of the 'big map' done in the style of the X3 sector map in your local zone. I think in an ideal world these maps and monitors would be part of a 2nd screen experience so those that have multiple monitors can permanently have maps, property and trading information displayed whilst leaving the primary display for the game world.

You would have to ask Egosoft about that and whether it enhances the pilot experience, although we saw something of the working cockpit HUD and the big map in the stream it was alpha footage to give you an idea of things.

[DaMuncha]

Awww the universe lay out in XR was tiny. I dont want that again.

See the other thing about X3 map vs XR map was the sectors were more spread out, you could go through a gate and end up in another part of the galaxy and encounter new races and enviroements.

In XR you flew from Sector with a station, 1 km along a highway, to another sector with a station. not like there was much diversity in between.

[Alan Phipps]

@ DaMuncha: Re your final sentence, that is rather incorrect. What you describe in XR is flying between zones with stations (or otherwise) within a single sector. Also within sectors you don't have to use the highways if you don't want to.

That is a big difference rather than just semantics and it actually makes a sector map in XR far more significant than one in X3. There are fewer sectors in XR gameplay than in X3, but there are still plenty enough for extensive gameplay, although in a different style.

[SimB]

Does anyone know, if EGOSOFT outsources i.e. their animation work via sites like www.fiverr.com?

I mean, they are a small team - maybe it would be best they concentrate on what they do best and give the stuff, they can not do as well to specialists.

I guess they are doing that already, but I still would like to know how they do it.