RTS Map functions

[DaMuncha]

Well the UI in XR was terrible. I'd much rather have the UI from X3, but even then, it was menus within menus within menus. To access my salvage commands I have to go to: |"ship" "auto pilot" "console" "special commands" "savage suit" "Option" "map" "target"| anytime I want to tell my ships to do anything. so how about a ship commands button (key) then a command (key), so give them orders like a RTS, I could just select them, then "A" to attack then click on what I want them to attack, rather than have to select what I want them to attack from a long list of things in the sector. or "D" to defend a target on the map. or "F" to follow a target on the map. or "R" to reclaim a target on the map. or "B" to board a target on the map", or "M" to move to a position on the map. or "W" to wait at a position on the map, or "D" to dock with a target on the map. or "H" to hack", or "T" to trade...

Having a in game map that you cant use other than just to see the position of icons with little else functionality in a game where you need to command large fleets its kinda redundant.

What else would you want from the Map?

[spacecoyote99]

Did you follow the latest stream? The map is pretty much already an RTS style map allowing you to assign units to tasks via right-click context menu, and group units together.

Bernd did say they're focusing on mouse control for now but hotkeys would be a possible addition still to come. I agree that would make map control even better.

[DaMuncha]

its the "right click context menus" that I want to get away from, because its not just 1 right click context menu. its Right click to open the menu of only 3 options, which lead on to more options, which lead on to more options. I've been playing X3 this week and that was almost impossible to do quickly in the middle of a fight.

[BigBANGtheory]

Having a in game map that you cant use other than just to see the position of icons with little else functionality in a game where you need to command large fleets its kinda redundant.

The X4 map is interactive, it does a lot more than display the position of the icons. Egosoft said they are working on optimizing the menu workflow first and that hotkeys were a possible (not promised) addition later on. From what I've seen it appears very good indeed.

In an ideal world I'd like to display the map on a 2nd physical monitor whilst leaving my main monitor for the cockpit and first person view port. That's a aspirational thing though the quality, function and integration with the gameplay features of the map are far more important. Egosoft said not to expect any 2nd screen experiences though so we might have to park that one for now.

[BigBANGtheory]

its the "right click context menus" that I want to get away from, because its not just 1 right click context menu. its Right click to open the menu of only 3 options, which lead on to more options, which lead on to more options. I've been playing X3 this week and that was almost impossible to do quickly in the middle of a fight.

Yes that is a fair point there are certain tasks such as movement, attack and withdraw that you don't want to be messing around with nested menus on they should be very quick to execute. Its hard to judge by looking at the video but it seems Egosoft have it covered. Hotkeys will help with that also particularly if the player can define/assign them.

[DaMuncha]

Thats not a bad idea. I dotn see why it cant be done. since the map interface would be displayed on a 2D surface in front of the main camera, all theyd have to do is display that 2d surface on a monitor in your cockpit like they do with the gravidar.

[mr.WHO]

I have additional question regarding RTS function:

Can we define quick groups like in RTS (e.g. Ctrl+1 to define group 1, Crtl + 2 to define group 2 etc. and then quik select that group by hitting 1,2,3...?

[RAVEN.myst]

I have additional question regarding RTS function:

Can we define quick groups like in RTS (e.g. Ctrl+1 to define group 1, Crtl + 2 to define group 2 etc. and then quik select that group by hitting 1,2,3...?

I SO much hope so (the "RTSiness" claims have made me rather more than merely hope, but even *assume* that this will be the case.)

[BigBANGtheory]

I have additional question regarding RTS function:

Can we define quick groups like in RTS (e.g. Ctrl+1 to define group 1, Crtl + 2 to define group 2 etc. and then quik select that group by hitting 1,2,3...?

No not yet because ES haven't implemented hotkeys. Hotkeys I think are important particularly for seasoned X3 players who used hotkeys as a workaround for the deep nested menus.

[RAVEN.myst]

Hotkeys I think are important particularly for seasoned X3 players who used hotkeys as a workaround for the deep nested menus.

Indeed. When playing X3, an outside observer might think I'm typing a document In Rebirth I find the unresponsiveness of the menus frustrating as a result, as I have to slow myself down when issuing orders. Here's hoping THAT (laggy key parsing) is something X4 doesn't end up inheriting from the latest offering...

[Vandragorax]

Hotkeys I think are important particularly for seasoned X3 players who used hotkeys as a workaround for the deep nested menus.

Indeed. When playing X3, an outside observer might think I'm typing a document In Rebirth I find the unresponsiveness of the menus frustrating as a result, as I have to slow myself down when issuing orders. Here's hoping THAT (laggy key parsing) is something X4 doesn't end up inheriting from the latest offering...

You can turn on quick menus or something like that in the options so that there is no "laggyness" in Rebirth, it all happens instantly on key presses.

[RAVEN.myst]

Hotkeys I think are important particularly for seasoned X3 players who used hotkeys as a workaround for the deep nested menus.

Indeed. When playing X3, an outside observer might think I'm typing a document In Rebirth I find the unresponsiveness of the menus frustrating as a result, as I have to slow myself down when issuing orders. Here's hoping THAT (laggy key parsing) is something X4 doesn't end up inheriting from the latest offering...

You can turn on quick menus or something like that in the options so that there is no "laggyness" in Rebirth, it all happens instantly on key presses.

Oh, but I DO have those turned on, and they are still laggy, nowhere near "instantly" - if I "type" my commands the way I do in the X3s, it misses almost every other keystroke, it simply doesn't keep up. Rebirth's UI is generally very sluggish compared to the snappiness of the X3s (I'm not 100% sure, but I think X2 might share a bit in Rebirth's sluggishness, though not to the same extent - will soon refresh myself, as I've been pining to give that another go-round ) And in addition to the generally slow "typematic" setting of in Rebirth, there's also other aspects that contribute to the sluggish feel, such as how it takes fully a second for controls to be returned to the player after closing a window such as the map, or the property list; and this isn't even taking into instances where player controls are fully locked out arbitrarily and unnecessarily by in-game events (as that isn't "sluggishness", it's just downright obstructive, unconscionably so.)

[Morkonan]

I'm really looking forward to much more functionality for the primary map interface in regards to managing player assets.

However, what I truly, truly, want to see, besides that, is an easier way for players to create and fine-tune the scripts/behaviors for their ships. I want to preserve the depth and functionality of the system in X3TC, for instance, but have it combined with a more visually functional, easily "mousable" menu system for these really deep scripting features.

The "magic" in X3TC is partly due to this very deep, fundamental, ability to fine-tune the behaviors of your ships, providing for many different customizable behaviors.

Properly done, with enough work put into it, using this wonderful scripting system, a player's entire "empire" could practically run itself. (Provided certain unintended quirks were ironed out, of course.)

That's fairly unprecedented in any game that's remotely like the X series in terms of management and empire building. It's truly unique in that regard and I haven't seen anything so innovative and significant since the first "Total Annihilation" game, which broke the mold for unit behavior customization, despite titles like "Command & Conquer."

It's not that the X games are an "RTS", even though they often play like that. It's that these behavior customization options add an almost indescribable amount of depth to playing the game and "building" something within it.

In my opinion, continuing the tradition of unit behavior customization, like in X3TC (Which is what I'm familiar with), is critical to X4's success. Making that easier, more accessible, to the player is what I'd like to see in X4.

ie: From map or "Asset" menu, right-click, select Customize Script, choose the script to be active or edit, with a visual GUI, the current one, select "run" when finished, "fire and forget" since the ship will carry out it's new custom orders without fail. It will do exactly what you've told it to do, even if you told it to do something you didn't intend it to do.

[RAVEN.myst]

That's fairly unprecedented in any game that's remotely like the X series in terms of management and empire building. It's truly unique in that regard and I haven't seen anything so innovative and significant since the first "Total Annihilation" game, which broke the mold for unit behavior customization, despite titles like "Command & Conquer."

There was also another title, around the same time, that sadly went largely unnoticed, and which already back then (some time in the 90s) implemented AI behaviour controls that I have seen implemented nowhere else: Dark Reign: The Future of War. I suspect its lack of impact is largely due to it being eclipsed by the likes of C&C, TA, SC, and (to me the utterly nondescript) KKND. Sadly, the game's sequel (which may have been created by a different development studio) abandoned all of the original's best features and ended up being a completely lacklustre piece of dren.

Besides implementing visual obstruction by the terrain (which was among the first truly 3D terrains in a RTS, as far as I'm aware), it had sliders that could be set for each unit to control its overall behaviour (Seek and Destroy, Harass, Scout) that went beyond the actual order issued to it (Attack, Attack-Move, Defend, Hold Position, etc), as well as damage tolerance thresholds that allowed the player to set at what level of damage the unit would automatically return to a repair facility.

Here's an example of how such settings could be applied: there was a unit whose name I forget (possibly "Shredder", but am not sure) - it was essentially a horizontal buzzsaw with hover-propulsion, a fast-moving anti-infantry weapon. If set to "Harass" and "Low Damage Tolerance", it would effectively scout out the map while engaging and assassinating isolated infantry units, while avoiding unfavourable engagements, and returning home to repair after being dented in the least (it was, after all, quite a fragile unit, especially to vehicle-mounted weapons.)

Furthermore, the player could specify these setting for every unit production facility, and then these settings would be applied to units produced by that structure.


Hmmm, I've been in the mood to give Supreme Commander another go-round, and this "chat" has whet that appetite even more...

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Raven

if I "type" my commands the way I do in the X3s, it misses almost every other keystroke

Funnily enough I had this exact same behaviour in X3 Reunion when I first played it.

I then went and bought a brand new computer with a faster processor more memory and a better graphics card.

This fixed the problem.

[RAVEN.myst]

@Raven

if I "type" my commands the way I do in the X3s, it misses almost every other keystroke

Funnily enough I had this exact same behaviour in X3 Reunion when I first played it.

I then went and bought a brand new computer with a faster processor more memory and a better graphics card.

This fixed the problem.

I considered this, but my machine is quite strong (not cutting-edge, though, granted) and the game overall runs well (except in heavily fogged areas, heh.) My CPU and graphics performance are constantly displayed on my second monitor, and my CPU in particular is practically sleeping most of the time, it's so underused (my GPU goes up to 85% usage at times, though - in those same peasoup locations, and occasionally elsewhere.) My RAM is gaming-grade and of a high-end brand (but if there IS a hardware bottleneck, it's the most likely culprit, as I have no live performance monitor for that.)