Suggestions for existential crisis

[Falcrack]

In X4, some people want a peaceful, relaxing game that they can step away from. Others want combat. Sometimes we want both, but at different times. Here's a rough outline of how I think existential crises ought to be handled.

Initiating the crisis
The player should be presented with a choice to go do something or not. An example would be like blowing up the amplifier station in the Yaki plot. Hardly something that happens by accident. Or blowing up an extremely high yield nividium asteroid, which would make the player very rich, but make the Kha'ak very angry. The player is made aware of the possible consequences of their actions (ie the Xenon or Kha'ak get very upset and may go on a galaxy wide rampage if you do it). In any case, initiating the crisis would be completely optional.

The crisis
The crisis should be something that threatens the whole galaxy. Not just player owned assets. Left unchecked by the player, it could have the potential to wipe out the galaxy. For the Xenon, my preference would be to turn up Xenon military activity up to an 11. This could be done by increasing the unit cap for Xenon ship building, and possibly giving them a huge discount on building their ships, so they can produce them using less resources. For the Kha'ak, they could randomly spawn ravager groups in important sectors (not just player owned sectors).

Resolving the crisis
The player could resolve the crisis by completing some very difficult task. Something like destroying a Xenon CPU ship, which would reset the Xenon back to their normal difficulty level, or destroying a massive and heavily defended Kha'ak base, like an Operation Final Fury 2.0, which would stop the Kha'ak ravager raids, and set the Kha'ak back to their normal level of small raids.

I think the idea of simply paying Boso Ta 500 million credits to stop the crisis is lame and unimaginative.

[LameFox]

Something I will say in favour of spawns: "real" enemies are nice, but costly. One reason they might have gone with spawning them is the performance it spares in econ ships. For this reason I think a possible alternative would be something like an anomaly, gate, etc. which appears somewhere in the universe and sends forces through to expand and capture the space around them until defeated. Basically what's done in Stellaris. That could have the added benefit that if your Xenon are dead, it could revive their real faction too, but would primarily be its own parallel thing.

Kha'ak could do something similar, but with different installations than normal to spawn their bigger ships. And ideally I would like to see them have to spawn away from objects rather than instantly delete things.

[Falcrack]

Something I will say in favour of spawns: "real" enemies are nice, but costly. One reason they might have gone with spawning them is the performance it spares in econ ships.

That's why I suggested for the Xenon, that part of their crisis is the ships are made far less costly, enabling them to build more ships with less resources. If the Xenon had already been wiped out, the crisis could spawn in a number of Xenon military ships, economy ships and stations at the start in a sector with abundant resources to allow them to revive.

[LameFox]

Something I will say in favour of spawns: "real" enemies are nice, but costly. One reason they might have gone with spawning them is the performance it spares in econ ships.

That's why I suggested for the Xenon, that part of their crisis is the ships are made far less costly, enabling them to build more ships with less resources. If the Xenon had already been wiped out, the crisis could spawn in a number of Xenon military ships, economy ships and stations at the start in a sector with abundant resources to allow them to revive.

Do they actually produce their econ ships based on need or is it defined somewhere that they make such-and-such amount? If the latter you'd probably have to mess with that too if you want them to make a different proportion of econ ships, and then set them back to normal once it's over. Having a parallel Xenon force just seems like it might be more straightforward to pull off.

[flywlyx]

Something I will say in favour of spawns: "real" enemies are nice, but costly. One reason they might have gone with spawning them is the performance it spares in econ ships. For this reason I think a possible alternative would be something like an anomaly, gate, etc. which appears somewhere in the universe and sends forces through to expand and capture the space around them until defeated. Basically what's done in Stellaris. That could have the added benefit that if your Xenon are dead, it could revive their real faction too, but would primarily be its own parallel thing.

Kha'ak could do something similar, but with different installations than normal to spawn their bigger ships. And ideally I would like to see them have to spawn away from objects rather than instantly delete things.

The solution is relatively straightforward; a gate defense station should suffice for this type of crisis.
The current spawning solution isn't flawed; it's just that the difficulty level is too high for regular vanilla players.
Players require numerous M corvettes to manage the crisis, a strategy they may not employ under normal circumstances.

[naisha]

I just wish they wouldn't spawn out of nowhere and only where player assets are located.

For the khaak I can understand them spawning but the xenon? At least they should have a point on the map where they come from (or multiple points so it's not so easy to just block one gate)

[LandogarX4]

The solution is relatively straightforward; a gate defense station should suffice for this type of crisis.
The current spawning solution isn't flawed; it's just that the difficulty level is too high for regular vanilla players.
Players require numerous M corvettes to manage the crisis, a strategy they may not employ under normal circumstances.

The gate-camping defense stations could be nerfed another way. For example, by making capitals appear further away from the gate (like capitals already do now). Perhaps the distance the ships appear from the gate could be increased if there are constructions in front of the gate. Alternatively, the Xenon could get something like an autonomous, slow moving suicide drone that explodes when being destroyed. They could send that through the gate to get rid of campers.

Having clearly defined frontline sectors and safe rear sectors is crucial for those players who are economy focused.

[LameFox]

If you want to nerf gate defence platforms, stopping the plots from expanding into each other seems like the place to start.

That being said, there is not much functional difference to me between "you cheese this by building a really big station" and "you cheese this by building a lot of corvettes". Yes, if you like, you can out produce any obstacle—until your pc catches fire.

[chew-ie]

Trying to balance things along cheesing routes some players take is wrong IMHO.

RE gate defense stations - players using this cheesing tactics put an awful lot of time & effort into building those things - no "normal" player would do that.
Or in other words: if the answer "spawn Kha'ak in the middle of the sector" is because of "players might have build gate defenses" then this is the wrong strategy.

And about that "nerfing" - this asks for trouble as well. There is a reason why some players ressort to those cheesing tactics. The motivation doesn't really matter. But try to take that away and you get yet another part of the community yelling.

I'd say: stick to the basic rules of the game. Capital ships have to use gates. If those are vaporized due to some player using a defense station which focus-fires 600 L-Beams on a single target - then so be it. Those players should be happy because "crisis averted" in their book. All other players can play the conflict the "normal route" by using their fleets / positions / minefields / whatever.

[Falcrack]

Regarding overpowered defense stations, this is precisely the reason why I asked for a station maintenance mod. The more expensive the station, the more you would have to pay to maintain it. Since defense platforms generate no revenue, building a huge defense platform would also be a huge continuous money sink, discouraging players from making them unless they absolutely have to and are willing to spend the resources continually to.keep it operational.

[Nanook]

Why is anyone worried about overpowered gate defense stations? If you don't like them, you don't have to build them. Why are you trying to force other players to play by your rules? It's a single player game. The way others play has absolutely no impact on your game, so why should you care? I just don't get it.

[chew-ie]

Why is anyone worried about overpowered gate defense stations?

Just in case I didn't make that clear: I'm not. I say ignore those stations when designing any missions. If players want to spoil their fun with overpowered defenses then it should be their right to do so. Same as all other players should be able to play against a "normal" balance which doesn't require 1000s of hours of preparation.

[Falcrack]

Why is anyone worried about overpowered gate defense stations? If you don't like them, you don't have to build them. Why are you trying to force other players to play by your rules? It's a single player game. The way others play has absolutely no impact on your game, so why should you care? I just don't get it.

If you didn't notice in my statement, I was hoping for a mod to address my concerns about overpowered defense stations, by requiring that they have maintenance costs proportional to their construction costs. Not something I want to force on other players.

[flywlyx]

RE gate defense stations - players using this cheesing tactics put an awful lot of time & effort into building those things - no "normal" player would do that.

Humans have been using fortresses for more than 6000 years, if talking about what "normal" players do, I would say building gate defense stations is what normal players would do.

I'd say: stick to the basic rules of the game. Capital ships have to use gates. If those are vaporized due to some player using a defense station which focus-fires 600 L-Beams on a single target - then so be it. Those players should be happy because "crisis averted" in their book. All other players can play the conflict the "normal route" by using their fleets / positions / minefields / whatever.

Defining something as normal based on your preference is pointless. I would suggest you check other games about how "normal" games would do.
As far as I know, spawning enemies in the center of players' base/city/system as a surprise attack is common practice in all types of games.

I would say an option to avoid the crisis is probably the most common solution, a sand box game should have a casual mode after all.

[chew-ie]

A player NOT spending billions into building defense stations.

[xant]

As far as I know, spawning enemies in the center of players' base/city/system as a surprise attack is common practice in all types of games.

Only that those games don't advertise themselves as true simulations, in which everyone follows the rules and nobody can cheat.

Such a cheap trick might work with those games, but it leaves a very bad aftertaste in X4.

[flywlyx]

A player NOT spending billions into building defense stations.

Maginot Line cost 3 billion French francs, a station to handle the crisis fleet, 1I 4K doesn't even need 3 billion credit.

Only that those games don't advertise themselves as true simulations, in which everyone follows the rules and nobody can cheat.

Such a cheap trick might work with those games, but it leaves a very bad aftertaste in X4.

Let's remove Khaak as a start?

[VTJagatai]

My idea (given magical coding powers) on how to implement the crisis based on reading different feedback. And assuming of course that these things are possible with increased demands in processing power.

Priorities
1. Give people the option to not participate in the crisis. No reason at all to force all players to do something.
2. Make it brutally hard. It should be a true end game crisis where the player can very easily lose!

First, I would break the Kha'ak and Xenon attacks into two separate events.

It starts with the Kha'ak.

They invade the player's sector with the highest value of stations. Keep the current model because this is exactly how the Kha'ak attack per the Boron plot, lore, and past games. This is our President's End moment and it should be frustrating and lethal.

The Kha'ak goal is to kill all stations and trade/mining ships in the sector (military secondary) and then leave. On a timer the Kha'ak then attack the top station sector for each of the major factions, which will typically be shipyards. Important for later as it undermines the ability of everyone to resist what comes next.

Here come the Xenon.

After the first or second Kha'ak attack a new Xenon sector is spawned. The Hub. It connects to one unopened gate and pours out a horde of xenon ships from it's two super shipyards and wharfs that require zero resources to build (cause other hub connections of course).

The resolution.

Once the player has killed off at least three Kha'ak invasions (i.e. surviving stations with all Kha'ak destroyed - or some other metric) we gain the ability to summon the swarm as a plot device.

Bosa informs us that we need to attack the Hub and destroy the super Xenon ship. Which will close the Hub gate connection and kill everything in that sector that doesn't get out before the ship dies. They player can summon the swarm to trap the Kha'ak fleet in a three way battle with the Xenon, destroying the swarm in the process.

That's it. Get the Kha'ak summoning whistle. Fight your way to the hub gate and into the hub. Fight your way past two fleets in a massive fight. Kill the mothership. Don't be in the sector when it blows with appropriate tears for the crew that sacrifices themselves. Rebuild a destroyed commonwealth.

And if you fail… it doesn't stop until the Kha'ak and Xenon kill everything. Because this crisis ain't for the faint of heart.

The Kha'ak keep destroying the ability of the player and factions to resist. The Xenon keep sending over their extermination fleets from the hub. It compounds into a deathball of doom unless stopped.

[Hector0x]

Official endgame crisis mechanics are not worth their dev time and should be left for modders to solve.

The reason is human psychology. X4 is so very slow paced that a typical gamer has to sink what? 100 hours to reach the endgame?

Most humans won't accept to 'loose' after investing that much playtime.
If the endgame content would actually be dangerous and there are no exploits which allow you to minimize your risk, then there is a good chance that you just give up once it starts to become even just slightly stressful.
And nobody needs a toothless crisis either.

So whatever the outcome, it will never be fun except for that small minority who likes actual risk and doesn't mind loosing their 100h progress. But most people just want to relax and escape from their real life worries.

Juice is not worth the squeeze for Egosoft.