Just what is going on in the Ukraine? Including vote now, for politicians among us;)

[Chips]

So Russia hasn't carried out very-out-of-normal "excercises" with tens of thousands of troops on the Ukraine border - and Putin never said he could invade and be in Kiev in 2 weeks.

See what I mean about being blinkered?

[Tracker001]

Putin testing the waters ?

"At about 1:30 a.m. Thursday, two Canadian CF-18 fighter jets intercepted two of the long-range bombers about 40 nautical miles off the Canadian coastline in the Beaufort Sea.

Lt. Col. Michael Jazdyk, a spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, said the U.S. jets intercepted the planes about 55 nautical miles from the Alaskan coast at about 7 p.m. Pacific time Wednesday."

http://www.whas11.com/news/US-Canadian- ... 79861.html

[Timsup2nothin]

Putin testing the waters ?

"At about 1:30 a.m. Thursday, two Canadian CF-18 fighter jets intercepted two of the long-range bombers about 40 nautical miles off the Canadian coastline in the Beaufort Sea.

Lt. Col. Michael Jazdyk, a spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, said the U.S. jets intercepted the planes about 55 nautical miles from the Alaskan coast at about 7 p.m. Pacific time Wednesday."

http://www.whas11.com/news/US-Canadian- ... 79861.html

They did not enter sovereign airspace of the United States or Canada.

In the past five years, jets under NORAD's command have intercepted more than 50 Russian bombers approaching North American airspace.

Testing the waters? Conducting routine operations? You decide.

By the way, the US recognizes twelve miles, so if this were their planes fifty miles off the Russian coast (where they frequently are) the US would be saying "what of it?" instead of pumping out a press release.

[Tracker001]

Cold-War-era training flights by Russian aircraft were suspended when the Soviet Union fell. In 2007, flush with money from high oil prices, the Russians resumed these air exercises – prompting monitoring by North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) in response.

OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Jun. 19 2014, 9:33 PM EDT
Last updated Friday, Jun. 20 2014, 1:51 PM EDT

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... e19255529/

.............
"Testing the waters? Conducting routine operations? You decide"


The Bombers , Russian , U.S. , etc , Carry nuk tipped cruse missiles , not the old drop and run style . No need to enter the 12 miles .


Anyway it's probably more the increase in "routine flights" that has peoples attention .

Nothing I'll be doing about the situation ( as if I could )

[Warenwolf]

Three days ago Russians had similar show of force in Sweden where they entered Swedish airspace.


http://theaviationist.com/2014/09/19/su ... -airspace/

[Morkonan]

....Neither was supporting the second Ukraine rebellion. The first 'diplomatic' move was the attempt to continue expansion of NATO in an ongoing effort to isolate Russia.....

I just want to point something out: If NATO was "expanding" to isolate Russia, why was Ukraine not already a member? Why was Georgia not already a member?

This is something I mentioned before, during the Georgia crisis, when the "NATO" subject came up. NATO's objective in gaining new members is not to gain it's own members new wars.

When a country joins NATO, its members take that thing sort of seriously. They take their treaty obligations seriously. NATO is a defensive organization and joining NATO is not an "offensive" move nor is it an excuse for one.

NATO has had a close relationship with Ukraine over the past decade or so. Just before the Georgia crisis, NATO held scheduled exercises with Ukraine. In Georgia, there were about a hundred NATO troops stationed there, acting as training advisers at the request of the government, before the crisis started. During the crisis, Georgia decided that it wanted to join NATO and NATO said... "No." After the crisis, Georgia didn't join NATO, did it? Neither did Ukraine, did it?

It is true that "joining NATO" has been used by both sides as a political tool. But the actual "threat" of joining NATO is worth more than the act, itself. NATO is not going to accept a member that is on the brink of war with a neighbor, no matter who it is. Why? Because, when a NATO member is attacked, the treaty obligations of the member states will force them to respond militarily. That's it's purpose. Nobody is going to welcome in a country who's members places the rest of the membership states into a war that didn't concern them before.

The "provocation" here is clear. When Ukraine made its own mumblings about seeking closer ties with the EU, Putin blinked. The "ZOMGZ NATO!" argument is a straw man, a boogey-man that gets brought out only because it's a military alliance and can be colored however one wants. Notice the real subject, EU membership, has been dropped in favor of Russia instead claiming "ZOMGZ NATO!" so as to color this whole series of events as a "righteous" defensive action. In reality, NATO membership wouldn't have been on the table during a time when accepting Ukraine would have meant "war" for NATO member states.

Ukraine is not Georgia, so the question of Ukrainian membership has been much more strongly considered. But, there were strong relationships with NATO and Ukraine before this series of events and... nothing. All of a sudden, now, Russia uses some argument about NATO aggression as a prelude for an excuse? They could have done that long ago.

More likely, the more real threat of Ukrainian membership in the EU along with the threat of a new government that was unfriendly to Russian interests, mostly economic, raised the ugly specter that we're dealing with today. Better to go ahead and secure vital military assets now, than have Ukraine attempt to renegotiate an unfavorable lease agreement.

Don't forget about Abkhazia, either. If one wants to see something interesting, exchange "Abkhazia" for "Crimea" or "Eastern UKraine" and then rewind history a bit... It's a set-piece example of Russian policy towards vital military interests in the Black Sea and within former member states of the Soviet Union. No "ZOMGZ NATO!" threat requires...

[fiksal]

Somewhat relevant:
recently happened (another) "March For Peace" in Moscow, specifically.
all happened peacefully. People voiced their disagreement with their country's policies, to put it one way.

here are some photos
notice Ukrainian and Russian flags together. Pretty brave in the current situation.
And this one: "Forgive us, Ukraine"

[V2200]

fiksal
http://www.ridus.ru/images/2014/9/21/23 ... bb33a6.JPG

[fiksal]

fiksal
http://www.ridus.ru/images/2014/9/21/23 ... bb33a6.JPG

Haha, yes I saw that too. Pretty hilarious

"Traitor" is in the eye of the beholder, I'd say.

EDIT: I gotta add I dont know any of those people, but I am gonna bet that they are few public figures that disagree with Putin's policy? Are any of them in jail yet?

[felter]

I seen something about that demo. The ones behind it had hoped to see 50K turn up for it, the Russian police said the attendance was around 5K, while the press were reporting over 20K turned up for it. To me the numbers don't matter, as anyone turning up at it and voicing an opinion against Putin is a pretty brave thing to do, we all know what has happened to others who have done so.

[fiksal]

I seen something about that demo. The ones behind it had hoped to see 50K turn up for it, the Russian police said the attendance was around 5K, while the press were reporting over 20K turned up for it. To me the numbers don't matter, as anyone turning up at it and voicing an opinion against Putin is a pretty brave thing to do, we all know what has happened to others who have done so.

Indeed. Especially people with Ukrainian flags.


So some news sites claim that the "march" wasnt properly scheduled and was agreed with major of the city under some other cause. Odd and sneaky, but okay.

The police still didnt disperse anyone, and I've also read, the police actually kept a dozen or so of pro-military-action-in-ukraine people away from the demonstrators. No major scuffles apparently happened.

As for the number, it appears not everyone can count.

Some sites claim 100k. The police claims 5k. Demonstrators claim anywhere between 25k and 40k. From the photos, it's certainly not 5k though.



Did the march matter? Who knows.

[V2200]

I gotta add I dont know any of those people, but I am gonna bet that they are few public figures that disagree with Putin's policy?

Yes.

Are any of them in jail yet?

No. They enjoy freedom.

[Chips]

I gotta add I dont know any of those people, but I am gonna bet that they are few public figures that disagree with Putin's policy?

Yes.

Are any of them in jail yet?

No. They enjoy freedom.

Can you list their names? The image basically implies they're brainwashed by the US so it would be interesting to see who they are, what they are about

[RegisterMe]

The oil price has dropped below $100 / barrel. If it stays there that's going to make life interesting.

[fiksal]

Did you know that brainwashing is tax deductible?

Can you list their names? The image basically implies they're brainwashed by the US so it would be interesting to see who they are, what they are about

I only have heard of one of them, a musician with, appears, no political intention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Makarevich

[Chips]

If the wikipedia is right, then ... well, whatever.

Makarevich performed for Ukraine's internally displaced people during the war in Donbass in the Ukrainian town Sloviansk in August 2014.[4] Deputy of the State Duma Yevgeny Alexeyevich Fyodorov vowed to strip Makarevich of all Russian state honors, describing his performance in Sloviansk as "collaborating with the fascists".[4][5] Later that month, NTV (Russia) aired a documentary titled 13 Friends of the Junta in which Makarevich was described as a "traitor" and supporter of "fascists." The Moscow Times reported that footage of his concert "was merged with images of the fighting that he supposedly endorsed. The program never mentions that the concert was for the benefit of Ukraine's internally displaced children."[6]

Anyone know the others?

[fiksal]

If the wikipedia is right, then ... well, whatever.

More or less. Basically I think the story goes that he performed for the "wrong side".
But he was already "shamed" earlier. Pretty sure he got mostly hated for participating in the March For Peace, which happened in the spring this year, around the Crimea annexation time.

What details were you looking for?

[V2200]

I gotta add I dont know any of those people, but I am gonna bet that they are few public figures that disagree with Putin's policy?

Yes.

Are any of them in jail yet?

No. They enjoy freedom.

Can you list their names? The image basically implies they're brainwashed by the US so it would be interesting to see who they are, what they are about

Nemtsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov
Bykov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Bykov
Chirikova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeniya_Chirikova
Ponomaryov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Ponomaryov

[Chips]

Nemtsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov
Bykov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Bykov
Chirikova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeniya_Chirikova
Ponomaryov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Ponomaryov

Looking for these details - cheers

Essentially what I was looking for is why they're tied to the US in that image.


Do they really have any connections to the US, or are they being unfairly associated for some reason (political or otherwise).

I am guessing there's dislike/distrust/hate of the US - therefore associating anyone with the US whether fairly or unfairly helps propagate the same feelings towards those individuals. In other words, influencing public opinion against them (perhaps).

From the wiki pages I don't see why they'd be associated with the US - just associated (some of them) with publicly disliking/against Putin - but not the US.

[fiksal]

I am guessing there's dislike/distrust/hate of the US - therefore associating anyone with the US whether fairly or unfairly helps propagate the same feelings towards those individuals. In other words, influencing public opinion against them (perhaps).

From the wiki pages I don't see why they'd be associated with the US - just associated (some of them) with publicly disliking/against Putin - but not the US.

Yep.

EDIT: forgot I am not officially participating in this thread