Switzerland bans face coverings in public

[mr.WHO]

I checked with my Swiss colegues and aparently there was plenty of dicussions and reports in the media and goverment officials presenting both Burka abuse victims and women who like to wear it out of their own will.

If we take what you say at face value, then are you willing to admit that not every one wearing one sees a burqa as a symbol of oppression? And are you willing to acknowledge they have a right to their feelings without consideration of yours on the matter?

Yes and Yes...but Red Street light example.
There are plenty of responsible and sensible people who "walk safely" on red light, but as long as there are people who disregard them and cause accidents the red light are to stay.
If you say religous freedom is universal then I can only say I recall red light are enforced in most of the countries, but I think in UK they are only suggestion/advice.
Same is with Burka ban - soem countires find them neccessary, while other don't (My country included). I don't scream at Swiss racist left right and center.

I can imagine Middle East stabilizing and extremist numbers decreasign causing that Burka will no longer cause distress (e.g. like now Roman Legionare, Viking or Teutonic knight doesn't cause anyones distress anymore) - I can even say we are slowly moving there as Islam is evolving.

I'm quite sure that when that day come Swiss will remove these bans as they are very down to earth, practical people.

[fiksal]

Alright, I dont think those feelings should be equated to freedoms and should be protected. They pale in comparison of other people's actual freedoms.

Again, aparently Swiss found this issue to be important enough to be voted and voted "yes".

I said it many times, but we will see in 10 years who will be better, but I doubt Switzerland will turn into dumbsterfire like the Land of Free.
Maybe their priorities of freedoms are better?

There are plenty of moments in the history of most nations when majority persecuted minority. Relatively calm life of the majority doesnt justify their previous actions. Not now, not in 10 years.

If you are asking me, - you know my answer.



You think US is dumbsterfire, but what makes your country or Switzerland any less dumbsterfire than US? I would think nothing at all.
By this day I've not seen a country that got its shit together better than everyone else, and I've lived and visited a few.

[Vertigo 7]

So I'll ask again, in a different way. Did the alt-right group that proposed the burqa ban and campaigned to "end Muslim extremism" ask the Muslim communities how they felt about it?

Who cares what the alt-right intended? I already answered this ages ago, the people that voted all hade their OWN reasonings to do so,

If no one cares about what the alt-right intended, then why was there a vote?

Swiss are not a hegemony, some are racist, some are bigoted, most are neither! Even if they are there vote is NOT less valid because of it. And here is where the crux of all lies. Its the inability to conceded other people have different opinion and if they happen to not match yours then they must by -ist.

So, twice now, at least, the Swiss have passed laws that discriminate against Muslims. It would seem to me that there are more than some, even into most, that are racist when this is allowed to stand. Are you saying it's not possible for the majority to be racist?

You can dress it in all the flowery language you like. At the end of the day, the Swiss people have voted to hide the appearance of the Muslim faith from view of the public, twice, but no other such restrictions were placed on people of other religions.

[mr.WHO]

Alright, I dont think those feelings should be equated to freedoms and should be protected. They pale in comparison of other people's actual freedoms.

Again, aparently Swiss found this issue to be important enough to be voted and voted "yes".

I said it many times, but we will see in 10 years who will be better, but I doubt Switzerland will turn into dumbsterfire like the Land of Free.
Maybe their priorities of freedoms are better?

There are plenty of moments in the history of most nations when majority persecuted minority. Relatively calm life of the majority doesnt justify their previous actions. Not now, not in 10 years.

If you are asking me, - you know my answer.



You think US is dumbsterfire, but what makes your country or Switzerland any less dumbsterfire than US? I would think nothing at all.
By this day I've not seen a country that got its shit together better than everyone else, and I've lived and visited a few.

There was not a single moment in human history when majority did not prersecuted the minority in one way or another - it's bound to happen as soon as you have 3 or more people together.
The only choice you got, is if it will be opression of slight discomfort or bloody feud.

As for comparing USA to Switzerland - Switzerland is far ahead in all UN development and happines index - someone even posted the link some pages ago.

[Ketraar]

It also isn’t right debating people’s futures without them being involved in the debate.

This is the off topic forum I doubt any discussion here will have lasting impact on anyone's life, much less to those not involved.

MFG

Ketraar

[fiksal]

There was not a single moment in human history when majority did not prersecuted the minority in one way or another - it's bound to happen as soon as you have 3 or more people together.
The only choice you got, is if it will be opression of slight discomfort or bloody feud.

Exactly, so the idea that in 10 years we can judge the actions of now is flawed. Ends do not justify the means, and especially when we are only talking about a happiness of a specific group or some mathematical average.

If you like unrelated examples then :
- one can be a free and happy society, very high on any happiness index, rich society, that also prosecutes and jails a tiny minority of the country, denies them all human rights and citizenship. For example. Some could say that one would be doing much better than a less rich country that struggles with relations between various groups. But one of them is quite a better place, more free and fair than the other, in my opinion.

As for comparing USA to Switzerland - Switzerland is far ahead in all UN development and happines index - someone even posted the link some pages ago.

That math is just a statistical curiosity and doesn't negate any problems that I brought up and you discarded as not important.

[mr.WHO]

It also isn’t right debating people’s futures without them being involved in the debate.

This is the off topic forum I doubt any discussion here will have lasting impact on anyone's life, much less to those not involved.

MFG

Ketraar

Don't be so sure - these discussions made positive impact on my life and I say it honestly and in good faith

[fiksal]

They may have voted yes for this ban (and yes they also voted to ban minarets which is misused completely out of context in this discussion just to again virtue signal)

The way this thread is going, the "virtue signaling" in this case would be to show full support of both bans and double down on any dissent, against the likes of me or Vertigo, in order to gain respect of the fellow forum members, and signal his/hers superior virtues. Over the likes of us who live in "dumbsterfire", as it was proclaimed.

[Vertigo 7]

I checked with my Swiss colegues and aparently there was plenty of dicussions and reports in the media and goverment officials presenting both Burka abuse victims and women who like to wear it out of their own will.

If we take what you say at face value, then are you willing to admit that not every one wearing one sees a burqa as a symbol of oppression? And are you willing to acknowledge they have a right to their feelings without consideration of yours on the matter?

Yes and Yes...but Red Street light example.
There are plenty of responsible and sensible people who "walk safely" on red light, but as long as there are people who disregard them and cause accidents the red light are to stay.

I'm sorry but this red light analogy if yours is flawed. Yes, traffic lights serve a role in safety, but their primary purpose is to keep traffic flowing to serve commerce. You ever noticed how traffic lights, these days, stay green longer on main through ways and cross streets have short green times? Or at night when traffic light changes are disabled and they flash caution on the main through ways and stop on the cross streets? Not to mention, traffic lights were only put up after people started traveling by vehicle more and more. Anyway, I find little relevance to the topic at hand in this.

If you say religous freedom is universal then I can only say I recall red light are enforced in most of the countries, but I think in UK they are only suggestion/advice.

I did not say religious freedom is universal. I think it should be, but more specifically, leave people the f alone when they're not doing anything that harms anyone. That's as close to real freedom as anyone can get.

Same is with Burka ban - soem countires find them neccessary, while other don't (My country included). I don't scream at Swiss racist left right and center.

I can imagine Middle East stabilizing and extremist numbers decreasign causing that Burka will no longer cause distress (e.g. like now Roman Legionare, Viking or Teutonic knight doesn't cause anyones distress anymore) - I can even say we are slowly moving there as Islam is evolving.

I'm quite sure that when that day come Swiss will remove these bans as they are very down to earth, practical people.

I've yet to hear a rational explanation for how a burqa is harming people. We keep going round and round about this but it still makes no sense. What if you were no longer able to wear your favorite hoodie because some dude got his ass kicked in one once? But you never got your ass kicked in it, you like your hoodie, but everyone only remembers that one guy that got whupped and it makes their brown hole pucker every time they see it so it's now illegal for you to wear one.

Or, more accurately, you don't get to wear one anymore because some dude somewhere else kicked someone elses ass and some of the people from that region of the world that had nothing to do with that ass kicking wear one in their religious practices so now you can't wear it anymore.

And if you don't like hoodies, then substitute that for any article of clothing you do like.

[mr.WHO]

There was not a single moment in human history when majority did not prersecuted the minority in one way or another - it's bound to happen as soon as you have 3 or more people together.
The only choice you got, is if it will be opression of slight discomfort or bloody feud.

Exactly, so the idea that in 10 years we can judge the actions of now is flawed. Ends do not justify the means, and especially when we are only talking about a happiness of a specific group or some mathematical average.

If you like unrelated examples then :
- one can be a free and happy society, very high on any happiness index, rich society, that also prosecutes and jails a tiny minority of the country, denies them all human rights and citizenship. For example. Some could say that one would be doing much better than a less rich country that struggles with relations between various groups. But one of them is quite a better place, more free and fair than the other, in my opinion.

As for comparing USA to Switzerland - Switzerland is far ahead in all UN development and happines index - someone even posted the link some pages ago.

That math is just a statistical curiosity and doesn't negate any problems that I brought up and you discarded as not important.

That's what I mean by "testing, results, conclusion" - otherwise all our talk is simply subjective - we can pick most extreme cases against other side and point out who is more dysfunctional or racist.

Altogether UN indexes (especially multiple of them, for cross-reference) are the only meuasurable, tanglible points of reference.

Do I expect there are no unhappy or miserable people in Switzerland? No.
Do I expect there are no opressed people there? No.
But I can compare 2021 vs 2031 and see if there is any change for better or worse to make adjustment.

Claiming that some has great irrefutable idea that should be implemented imediately is what Communist and Nazi did.

Ultimately we can only try and test things carefully in democratic way, knowing that democracy is flawed, but it's still the best thing we go.

[Teladi CEO]

It also isn’t right debating people’s futures without them being involved in the debate.

This is the off topic forum I doubt any discussion here will have lasting impact on anyone's life, much less to those not involved.

MFG

Ketraar

I’m which your right, I doubt this discussion will have any major societal impacts. Again, the original purpose of my question was to question whether we should continue debating over whether or not people are being oppressed without hearing from the people themselves.

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Or, more accurately, you don't get to wear one anymore because some dude somewhere else kicked someone elses ass and some of the people from that region of the world that had nothing to do with that ass kicking wear one in their religious practices so now you can't wear it anymore.

It was a white hoodie, wasn't it?
--------------------------------------

Back on topic and UN reports on freedom: Swiss burqa ban is going to have zero impact on those, because there's almost noone (you can probably count them with your hands) actually wearing a burqa.
This makes me think: what face covering is this law about?

[Vertigo 7]

Or, more accurately, you don't get to wear one anymore because some dude somewhere else kicked someone elses ass and some of the people from that region of the world that had nothing to do with that ass kicking wear one in their religious practices so now you can't wear it anymore.

It was a white hoodie, wasn't it?

It could be pink with purple sequins for all I care =p

[fiksal]

Claiming that some has great irrefutable idea that should be implemented imediately is what Communist and Nazi did.

Ultimately we can only try and test things carefully in democratic way, knowing that democracy is flawed, but it's still the best thing we go.

and yet some freedoms must remain irrefutable.

[Vertigo 7]

Back on topic and UN reports on freedom: Swiss burqa ban is going to have zero impact on those, because there's almost noone (you can probably count them with your hands) actually wearing a burqa.
This makes me think: what face covering is this law about?

That's a good question because they advertised this ban as stopping Muslim extremism. It's almost as if they're anticipating a rise in Muslim immigration and they're trying pass laws to make Switzerland unappealing to potential immigrants.

[mr.WHO]

Back on topic and UN reports on freedom: Swiss burqa ban is going to have zero impact on those, because there's almost noone (you can probably count them with your hands) actually wearing a burqa.
This makes me think: what face covering is this law about?

That's a good question because they advertised this ban as stopping Muslim extremism. It's almost as if they're anticipating a rise in Muslim immigration and they're trying pass laws to make Switzerland unappealing to potential immigrants.

IMO, that's also very likely scenario - in last 10 years Swiss pased many laws to curb immigration altogether (from EU as well).
It's not like they want to cut it completely, but seems like they are concerned with social coherence, if they let too many people too fast.
Someone already mention that 1st and 2nd generation immigrants are already feel very Swiss nationalistic, so (at least for me) they are doing immigration right.

Note that Switzerland is relatively small country with rather small amount of proper land (you can't have metrocity in the middle of Alps, only 1/3 of the country us usable for large scale settlement), so they can't have population explosion.

[Vertigo 7]

Back on topic and UN reports on freedom: Swiss burqa ban is going to have zero impact on those, because there's almost noone (you can probably count them with your hands) actually wearing a burqa.
This makes me think: what face covering is this law about?

That's a good question because they advertised this ban as stopping Muslim extremism. It's almost as if they're anticipating a rise in Muslim immigration and they're trying pass laws to make Switzerland unappealing to potential immigrants.

IMO, that's also very likely scenario - in last 10 years Swiss pased many laws to curb immigration altogether (from EU as well).
It's not like they want to cut it completely, but seems like they are concerned with social coherence, if they let too many people too fast.
Someone already mention that 1st and 2nd generation immigrants are already feel very Swiss nationalistic, so (at least for me) they are doing immigration right.

Note that Switzerland is relatively small country with rather small amount of proper land (you can't have metrocity in the middle of Alps, only 1/3 of the country us usable for large scale settlement), so they can't have population explosion.

Sooooooooo.... they don't want an influx of immigrants so they only target Muslim immigration? I smell a Trump.

[mr.WHO]

Sooooooooo.... they don't want an influx of immigrants so they only target Muslim immigration? I smell a Trump.

Not really - given that they target EU nationals too, since several years ago.
I felt it, when I had to fill my work permit papers in much more detailed manner than before.

[Vertigo 7]

Sooooooooo.... they don't want an influx of immigrants so they only target Muslim immigration? I smell a Trump.

Not really - given that they target EU nationals too, several years ago.
I felt it, when I had to fill my work permit papers in much more detailed manner than before.

Oooooo... paperwork. Scawwy. Must be tough being so marginalized.

[mr.WHO]

Sooooooooo.... they don't want an influx of immigrants so they only target Muslim immigration? I smell a Trump.

Not really - given that they target EU nationals too, several years ago.
I felt it, when I had to fill my work permit papers in much more detailed manner than before.

Oooooo... paperwork. Scawwy. Must be tough being so marginalized.

If it work, it works - someone will not cross the border because paperwork, someone else because of burka - as I said Swiss are rather pragmatic.