Biden

[Vertigo 7]

If you're really this concerned about it, write your sena... o wait. nvm. Maybe petition your government to file a complaint with the US government.

Not really care as much, I'm concerned out of general balance of power - seems that when all was in Republican hands liberties died and America invaded some countries and when all was in Democrats more liberites died and America stayed in those countries and started drone striking several others - not much of a difference for an outsider.

Seem like having Ds and Rs in check and limiting eachother is least problematic scenario for the rest of the world - at least they didn't started any new war while having at lest several opportunities.

For all the bitchin about Trump and Pelosi it kinda sorta functioned, so fliping this and having Republican senate should function too - not great but not worst case either.

What are you talking about? Sure, republicans love squashing civil liberties. But what liberties have democrats ever taken away? Site specifics, please, with sources that don't come from Breitbart or Info Wars.

[mr.WHO]

If you're really this concerned about it, write your sena... o wait. nvm. Maybe petition your government to file a complaint with the US government.

Not really care as much, I'm concerned out of general balance of power - seems that when all was in Republican hands liberties died and America invaded some countries and when all was in Democrats more liberites died and America stayed in those countries and started drone striking several others - not much of a difference for an outsider.

Seem like having Ds and Rs in check and limiting eachother is least problematic scenario for the rest of the world - at least they didn't started any new war while having at lest several opportunities.

For all the bitchin about Trump and Pelosi it kinda sorta functioned, so fliping this and having Republican senate should function too - not great but not worst case either.

What are you talking about? Sure, republicans love squashing civil liberties. But what liberties have democrats ever taken away? Site specifics, please, with sources that don't come from Breitbart or Info Wars.

Obama Extended Patriot Act and then Freedom Act - he preatty much normalized mass surveillance of Americans that would make any communist state from 80s blush jealously.

[Vertigo 7]

Not really care as much, I'm concerned out of general balance of power - seems that when all was in Republican hands liberties died and America invaded some countries and when all was in Democrats more liberites died and America stayed in those countries and started drone striking several others - not much of a difference for an outsider.

Seem like having Ds and Rs in check and limiting eachother is least problematic scenario for the rest of the world - at least they didn't started any new war while having at lest several opportunities.

For all the bitchin about Trump and Pelosi it kinda sorta functioned, so fliping this and having Republican senate should function too - not great but not worst case either.

What are you talking about? Sure, republicans love squashing civil liberties. But what liberties have democrats ever taken away? Site specifics, please, with sources that don't come from Breitbart or Info Wars.

Obama Extended Patriot Act and then Freedom Act - he preatty much normalized mass surveillance of Americans that would make any communist state from 80s blush jealously.

Okay, and? Last I checked, I was free to come and go as I please. I still had the right to vote, I still had control over my body, I could still choose to follow or not any religion, etc etc. I didn't loose any rights or freedoms, neither did anyone else.

[mr.WHO]

Okay, and? Last I checked, I was free to come and go as I please. I still had the right to vote, I still had control over my body, I could still choose to follow or not any religion, etc etc. I didn't loose any rights or freedoms, neither did anyone else.

Privacy is also one of the Freedoms and most of Europeans will tell you that tyranny is a gradual process - they know it from experience.

[mr.WHO]

Also with how more and more thing go digital the privacy will have more and more material impact.

We already have begining of internet inquisition and digital book burning.

[Vertigo 7]

Okay, and? Last I checked, I was free to come and go as I please. I still had the right to vote, I still had control over my body, I could still choose to follow or not any religion, etc etc. I didn't loose any rights or freedoms, neither did anyone else.

Privacy is also one of the Freedoms and most of Europeans will tell you that tyranny is a gradual process - they know it from experience.

So you're saying Obama was a tyrant now? Black man did bad!!! How dare he reauthorize terrorist surveillance that a white guy authorized! Bad black man! Bad!

[mr.WHO]

So you're saying Obama was a tyrant now? Black man did bad!!! How dare he reauthorize terrorist surveillance that a white guy authorized! Bad black man! Bad!

It doesn't matter what color he or bush was, but in the hindsight this will allow goverment to spy on own people - I can't recall the source, it was probably one of Senate commision that whole Patriot Act in it's ENTIRE duration managed to prevent one, ONE terroris attack for sure and possibly 4 others. Great tradeoff for 300+ mil people privacy and entry gateway for future exploitation.

Obama ran specifically on "CHANGE" to what Bush administration was, not on following his mistakes.

[Vertigo 7]

So you're saying Obama was a tyrant now? Black man did bad!!! How dare he reauthorize terrorist surveillance that a white guy authorized! Bad black man! Bad!

It doesn't matter what color he or bush was, but in the hindsight this will allow goverment to spy on own people - I can't recall the source, it was probably one of Senate commision that whole Patriot Act in it's ENTIRE duration managed to prevent one, ONE terroris attack for sure and possibly 4 others. Great tradeoff for 300+ mil people privacy and entry gateway for future exploitation.

Obama ran specifically on "CHANGE" to what Bush administration was, not on following his mistakes.

Then go back in time and tell him no. What do you want me to do about it?

[mr.WHO]

Then go back in time and tell him no. What do you want me to do about it?

Dunno, but in regards to this forum topic is not optimistic that the guy behind Obama back was...dun dun dun...Biden.

Maybe he will be smarter and more experince now, but how much smarter/experience he can become after like 50 year in politics already?
You can't teach the old dog a new tricks. I'd even prefer 3rd term of Obama as he seem smarter and more experienced now than 8 years ago.

[Alan Phipps]

Just stop going down rabbit holes please. The topic of this thread is Biden and not some random crusade topic. Thanks.

[mr.WHO]

Just stop going down rabbit holes please. The topic of this thread is Biden and not some random crusade topic. Thanks.

Biden was more or less a part of anything we discuss and has relevance to the topic.
Whatever Obama did is good approximation of what would Biden do.
Hell, for how long he's in active politics he could be part of much till Bush senior.

That's not a rabbit hole - that's Loch Ness monster den

[Mightysword]

Whatever Obama did is good approximation of what would Biden do.
Hell, for how long he's in active politics he could be part of much till Bush senior.

Don't see that as problem currently. If politic go back to the Obama era (who I am not a fan) or the Bush Jr ( who I think was worse), that will be peach. Biden is a centrist Democrat, I'm totally counting on him to NOT jumping on the "all conservative ideals are evil" train, and if there is one Democrat who know how to walk the line and appeal to the other side, that would be him. I'm also counting on him not jumping on the farther end of his own side either (he's one of the few Democrat leadership that distanced from the "de-fund the police" movement a few months ago).

Let's try putting out the fire in the house before thinking about replacing the doors, shall we?

[mr.WHO]

For better or for worse - that's what I'm hoping for.

The one good thing in debates was that he proved that he's not as senile as Trump/Republicans picture him.
He had several things pulled out of context that made him looks like he's already in late stage Altzheimer, but in wider context these were much more like bloopers similar to Bush Jr - looks stupid, but just it.
He looked sound and clear to me during both debates.

[Falcrack]

The one good thing in debates was that he proved that he's not as senile as Trump/Republicans picture him.
He had several things pulled out of context that made him looks like he's already in late stage Altzheimer, but in wider context these were much more like bloopers similar to Bush Jr - looks stupid, but just it.
He looked sound and clear to me during both debates.

The reason some people think he is senile, is because Biden has had a lifelong issue with stuttering. Clips taken out of context showing him fumbling words do not account for the fact that he has been fumbling words during speeches his entire life. This does not mean he has diminished mental capacity in the least, or would make bad decisions. It's just something that people use to mock him.

[clakclak]

Biden is just another old white Neo-Liberal, plenty of those in the US. There is nothing that fills me with confidence that he will be able to breach the ever growing rift that splits the American population in two.

EDIT: Also maybe he shouldn't try. From an outsiders perspective the problem of the Democrats seems to be that they always try to make things right for everyone, whereas the Republicans are more intellegent. Their approach of "if you are not for me then **** you!" seems to be more successful while expending a lot less energy. Maybe it is time that the Democrats only start helping their voters and discard the Republicans as the "enemy" the same way the Republicans do to them. All this playing nice seems like a waste of time.

[Alan Phipps]

@ clakclak: Do you not see what you describe (both sides ignoring the other) as being one of utter static entrenchment? Where the split is around even, a mutual policy of entrenchment is unlikely to end well in any reasonable timescale. I certainly wouldn't describe such a mutual policy as 'intelligent'. Just my opinion from an outsider's perspective.

[clakclak]

@ clakclak: Do you not see what you describe (both sides ignoring the other) as being one of utter static entrenchment? Where the split is around even, a mutual policy of entrenchment is unlikely to end well in any reasonable timescale. I certainly wouldn't describe such a mutual policy as 'intelligent'. Just my opinion from an outsider's perspective.

"Intelligent" as in it serves the purpose. And the purpose of a political party in a Republic is to gain voters at any cost without breaking the laws of the Republic. Or how Max Weber put it: "Those who do politics seek power." (Wer Politik treibt, erstrebt Macht.) The Republican party has found an effective strategy to get voters by deciding to be uncompromising in their goals and not really caring who they hurt on their way to victory or how many democratic institutions they damage in the process. They even managed to bind their voters so closely to a person that they no longer care about the democratic process and instead of being loyal to the idea of the Republic, they are now loyal to a strongman. That isn't moral, but certainly clever. The only way to ultimatly "win" in a democratic race, is by getting rid of democracy. Now, I do not think Trump has any real intention to do that, nor do I think he could, but his presidency showed that there is potential to hollow out the institutions that are meant to make sure there is a balance of power. IMPORTANT: I don't think the Republicans are actually really aware of what they are doing, neither do I think destroying democratic institutions is their actual plan. There is no big conspiracy to overthrow the Republic. There are no high level Republicans sitting in a room somewhere planning to turn the US into a dictatorship. It is just that their rethoric is leading them down this path of destruction and they are burning any bridges no matter what the other side does as they have allready declared the democrats to be insane anyway. I think sooner or later somebody will have to take a stand against that rethoric instead of only ever trying appeasement, so why not start now when it isn't to late?

Or asking a different way: Why are the only ones ever asked to make the first step towards healing and compromising the Democrats and not the Republicans? Both parties need to approach each other, but if it is only one side doing that then you will eventually get taken advantage off.

To end on a more happy note: Stories like this one give me a lot of hope and for the sake of all Ameircans I hope this is the future they are heading towards.

[Alan Phipps]

Now that attitude shown in the last clip is indeed what I would call 'intelligent'. Whoever is ultimately successful, they both gain from the attitudes being shown (IMO).

[Vertigo 7]

Biden is just another old white Neo-Liberal, plenty of those in the US. There is nothing that fills me with confidence that he will be able to breach the ever growing rift that splits the American population in two.

EDIT: Also maybe he shouldn't try. From an outsiders perspective the problem of the Democrats seems to be that they always try to make things right for everyone, whereas the Republicans are more intellegent. Their approach of "if you are not for me then **** you!" seems to be more successful while expending a lot less energy. Maybe it is time that the Democrats only start helping their voters and discard the Republicans as the "enemy" the same way the Republicans do to them. All this playing nice seems like a waste of time.

I disagree with your assessment. Biden is a corporate stooge. He may back policies that support women's rights and civil rights, but that's hardly liberal. If anything, that's the bare minimum to be a democrat. He's still going to bow to the pressures of his corporate donors and act on behalf of businesses and not the people, which is why he's going to work with republicans and advance their interests cause the money all comes from the same place.

But I wish he wouldn't try to bridge that gap. You are bang on with your assessment there. Republicans have, especially under Trump and to a somewhat lesser extent a few years prior, treated democrats as the enemy. There's nothing about them that's worth even attempting to deal with until they purge the white nationalists from their ranks and earn some level of trust.

[Mightysword]

EDIT: Also maybe he shouldn't try. From an outsiders perspective the problem of the Democrats seems to be that they always try to make things right for everyone,

I can understand why an outsider think like that, and I will say that's probably how most liberal think of themselves as well. And ... that's exactly their problem.

Maybe it is time that the Democrats only start helping their voters and discard the Republicans as the "enemy" the same way the Republicans do to them.

And they have always been doing that, for "decades". Both left and the right are no more divisive than one another, the only difference is how the messages are crafted. The right's messages is raw, direct, explicit while the left's message is more round-about, subtle, and implicit. Right-wings nut will go up to your face and let the insult fly about how they are superior to you, while the left-wing fanatic will be passive-aggressive about how you should be ashamed for not sharing their idea.

Biden, like I said is someone in the middle. Someone than can recognized the advantage of playing both sides. Screw the "good vs bad" or "good vs evil" questions, this is about practicality and necessity.

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Edit: just to cite an example on this very forum, about a discussion I had with another poster in the past (name ommited) regarding Bernie:

This person said:

No it wont. Because Bernie is a lifelong advocate of the people, all the people.

And after I challenged this version of "all the people". The very same person responded with this:

(thats counting REAL people and yes I dont really care much for the super wealthy, their wealth is an aberration to capitalism, never mind common decency.)

And this is not an exception, but a norm way of thinking of the progressive-liberal wing, perhap not even in the US, but global. They are as fortified and entrenched in the "Us vs Them" mentality as their right wing counterpart. The right clearly doesn't play nice, but the left has also never been more than "pretend" to play nice, it's merely just lip service. It's like a project lead who says "I welcome criticism and encourage we all work together, but remember the only one who has the right idea here is me!"
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Until we have someone who can "genuinely" want to play nice, we ain't gonna go to fix **** in the US. And I believe Biden is that person. Like I said even if he himself does not want it, he came from a crop of politician that recognize its necessity. Yes, even if his chance is low, even if it is still a very long shot, the sad reality is out of all the current available option, he still has the best shot.